Stickley Era, the Arts & Crafts Movement

[Stonecat]

Here's an L&JG table on eBay that has a metal tag shop mark:

LJG table w/tag

Has anybody seen the LJG metal tag used on A&C/Mission pieces before? There's nothing I can find in the literature that notes the use of the metal tag. As far as I can surmise the metal tag was used on Colonial style pieces that were started aroung 1916 when the A&C/Mission line began to fade. I've seen the metal tag on eBay pieces before (phony application on phony pieces). I've always assumed these are bogus copies; probably the tag being sold by another eBay member.

In the case of this eBay table however, the table actually looks to be a legitimate L&JG piece. So whether the tag is fake or not does not make a huge difference to true value. In this case as well, he also has his info a little mixed up becasue this table was certainly made from 1910 to 1915 as well as earlier.
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Stonecat

[casequarter]

I've seen the metal tag on some later period rockers, but never anything like a dining table. I always assumed the metal tag was the last "mark" during the transition from the arts & crafts style.

I never really questioned the metal tag because it was on fairly simple, late period forms but it is possible it was added post-factory. If so, I would question why anyone would go through the effort to alter a real L&JG piece. See the link below for an example from Rago

http://www.liveauctioneers.com/s/lot-946921.html?q=l%26jg+metal+tag&pq=house%3Acraftsmanauctions&t=x

[Stonecat]

The puzzling point to me is still why no mention in the literature if it was truly used on Mission? The mark for the short lived Stickley Associated Cabinetmakers is covered in the books and it would technically be 1918 which is two years after the L&JG brand mark was supposed to have been used until, ie.1916. So in theory the metal tag could be be a gap filler between 16ish to 18ish (???)
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Stonecat

[KenF]

One of these metal tags is for sale on Ebay. Just search "Stickley tag" in the furniture section.

I'd post the link, but I need to have 4 more posts before I can post a URL in this new forum. Sorry.

[Stonecat]

[craftsmansky]

john at dreamlight has the theory that if a dealer buys a set of dining chairs that all have tags, he can take five off and still sell the set as "signed" because they all match and one has a tag.

then he can sell the remaining tags online or elsewhere.

if someone else has a chair they know from design, form, provenance or whatever is attributable or outright known,they could buy a tag and "sign" it. technically, i dont guess this is wrong, but somewhat misleading.

that could result in inappropriate tags ending up on chairs from the wrong period.

just a thought

[Jeremy]

[craftsmansky]

well, yeah, but i always like to think the best of folks...

[KenF]

Well, I'd rather not pick on any one dealer, as I don't know him or his practices personally. But the person selling the metal tags on Ebay is a different matter. An interesting moral lithmus test is whether a seller would inform a buyer that their piece has been re-tagged.

But, I think that the re-tagging issue brings up a larger question. Shouldn't the value of a multi-piece set decrease if all of the tags but one are removed? Since you know that each piece in the set should be marked and they aren't, shouldn't the altered set be less valuable than a set with all of the pieces marked?

And, if a mark of inappropriate vintage is used on a piece, even if it is the correct maker, shouldn't that be viewed like damage to the piece, lowering the value? After all, the valuable finish has been altered to take the mismatched tag. A collector with a strict interpretation could even view this label as detracting from the piece because it is a historical innacuracy and sign of tampering.

Finally, isn't there a slippery slope to this re-tagging issue too? If re-tagging is OK, then would a dealer find it appropriate to apply a replica tag? If so, then the potential for a cottage-industry for replica tags is born, further bluring the line between real pieces and fakes.

Just a few thoughts. I'd also like to point out that my most valuable piece is unmarked so I can commiserate with the un-tagged crowd.

[Stonecat]

Sometimes dining chair sets were shipped to retailers with only one chair tagged because the assumption was that they would be sold as a set. This explains why many side chairs are found with no tags.

I think the cottage industry already exists, legit and otherwise. I checked the website for the guy selling LJG tags. He also has Stickley Brothers, Tobey, and Handel tags, and the only couple pieces of Limbert he has in his shop coincidentally have the rare Limbert metal tag on them. Semi-regularly you see the decal, singles or even sheets, for Stickley Associated Cabinet Makers on eBay (and there have even been paper weights that seem to have this decal in them!). There is a guy who also sells repro Globe Wernicke and Macey decals on eBay (and he properly identifies them as such). There was also a guy selling Craftsman paper labels once, singles and sheets, and this was the guy we talked about in the old forum who had the blatant photo copied JM Young tags on a couple pieces, plus scratchy Gus marks on copper. I've got pictures of all of these worked into my database.
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Stonecat

[KenF]

Stonecat,

Once again you prove an invaluable resource. Will you include a section on fakes like this in your book?

Also, I'm curious what you and the other forum members think about the Stickley company's reproduction "Roycroft Tabourlet"? They clearly use the Roycroft symbol on their piece. Where does this fit in the gray area of reproductions? I'm sure that a sound appraiser could tell the difference, but what about a novice on the secondary market? And what is the difference between this and applying a repro mark or tag to a repro?

[Stonecat]

I'm incorporating the fake marks (and the possible fakes) into the respective maker sections, so that direct comparisons can be seen to the real deal. There are also some fake stamped marks that I've found and these are included as well.

The repro Roycroft stuff is also marked underneath with the Stickley (Audi) brand and metal tag (and these metal tags show up on eBay as well!), so in theory there's no deception going on, and they have legitimately paid for being allowed to use it. The problem with the Stickley marks is exactly what we talked about regarding the Harvey Ellis chair - we suspect that the metal tag was yanked and the brand sanded or planed out. If done expertly, a novice might not go looking for any evidence of this.

A repro mark on a repro piece would be the clearest form of fraud, whereas a repro on an original is not as bad but an original on a repro would be also be fraud.
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Stonecat

[Stonecat]